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 Shoulder Shots and the Facial Area
 
 3/7/2006 3:37:21 PM
User is offlineMichael Soper
33 posts
4th




Shoulder Shots and the Facial Area
In almost every diagram, it shows the facial area includes the muscles above the collarbone, between the shoulders (upper trapezius I believe).  I won't go the route of asking about a drop axe kick that only touches the top of the shoulder, since in almost every case the foot comes across and smacks the face anyways.  I would like to know if a player kicks (with the part of the foot below the ankle of course ;) to the shoulder or the muscle between the shoulder and the neck, then would it be considered a 2 point technique?
 3/7/2006 5:17:35 PM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: Shoulder Shots and the Facial Area
The very short answer to your question is "No." A clarification of the (Incorrect) Diagram in the WTF Competition Rule Book is as follows: Only the colored area of the hogoo is a Legal Scoring Area. On a WTF-approved hogoo the shoulder area is in white while the rest of the chest protector is either Blue or Red. If a Legal Attack with an Authorized Implement results in partial contact being made to a Legal Scoring Area with partial overlap in a permitted (non-colored) area, a Valid Point may be given by the Judges. Should the legal attack be completely in the Permitted (non-colored area of the chest protector) Area, but not in the Legal Scoring Area (colored portion of the chest protector), the Judges should not award a Valid Point. THis would address the Axe Kick that lands on the Shoulder Area (not the Head). As to the facial area, it was demonstrated at the most recent International Refresher Course that the neck area is such a small target that it is very difficult to kick only to the neck area. Again, should any part of the Legal Attacking Implement overlap the Legal Scoring Area (in this case, the head), the points may be awarded by the Judges.
~BHarris
 3/7/2006 6:07:51 PM
User is offlineMichael Soper
33 posts
4th




Re: Shoulder Shots and the Facial Area
Thank you for the prompt script for my ailment doctor.  It seemed to me that it would be absurd to count the shoulder kicks as a head shot.  However, the diagram in nearly every rule book I've seen (USTU/USAT/WTF) all seem to be contrary.  Do you know of any plans to revise the diagram in an upcoming edition?
 3/7/2006 6:20:19 PM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: Shoulder Shots and the Facial Area
The possibility of an updated, edited 'to better reflect English' version of the current (New) WTF Competition Rules is presently under way. Dr, William Sullivan of the USA is assisting WTF Referee Chair Hong Ki Kim in that effort. Note was made of the incorrect drawing in the current Competition Rule Book (WTF) at the IR Refresher Course in Dallas, TX, and Ref Chair Hong Ki Kim assured us that this will be addressed and changed in a future updated issue of the Competition Rules.
~BHarris
 3/8/2006 11:55:57 AM
User is offlinevoorheestkd
16 posts
www.voorheestkd.com
5th


Re: Shoulder Shots and the Facial Area

...unfortunately, in the meantime, we have to deal with coaches who will waive that rule book in our faces and throw a fit because we're not scoring two points for that lovely ax kick that drops onto the top of the shoulder.  Had that happen at NCTA's.  I tried very patiently to explain that the drawing was incorrect, as was the translation, and....unfortunately, it became a waste of oxygen, as I wasn't being listened to.

Really didn't make sense to me, either, as that coach's player won by the 7 pt. gap, too.  I guess some folks likes to fuss just the hear themselves fuss...

But it might beg the question:  who is going to be sharing the rules of the game with the attendees at the new and improved coaches' seminars?  Will it be a referee who is up-to-date and well-versed in the most current application and interpretation of the rules?  Inquiring minds (and the one or two folks in my local clubs that might attend) want to know. :)

--Larry Voorhees
 3/8/2006 1:13:40 PM
User is offlineMichael Soper
33 posts
4th




Re: Shoulder Shots and the Facial Area

I'm willing to bet there will always be a slight miscommunication between the coaches and referees at any tournament.  It would be best (althought highly unlikely) to have all the referees available during the coaches' meeting and have all coaches attend a mandatory referee seminar, but there is simply not enough time and money for both.  Perhaps there will be a great deal of refereeing and judging covered in the new Coach Certification program soon to be instituted by USA Taekwondo?  I wouldn't mind seeing a requirement for Qualified Coaches to be at least D-3, but where would they get the time if they have to attend coaching meetings at the same time most referee seminars are offered?
 3/8/2006 4:10:03 PM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: Shoulder Shots and the Facial Area
Messrs Voorhees and Soper bring up excellent points. It is unknown what structure the new CIDP will have, or whether there will be a section that allows Referee input. However, currently there is always a representative from the ranks of the Referees that attends the Coaching Orientation at USAT National Events. That person always shares the latest information regarding the rules and how they are being enforced. Unfortunately, not all coaches participate in the Orientation, so they don't all get the word straight from a Referee representative at the events. I would suggest that, in the case where a Coach does not understand why the points are not scored for kicks to the shoulder area, the Referee-In-Charge at that event should do the explaining to the coaches. That might prevent delays in the rings and it would definitely take the burden away from the officials working in that particular ring. Remember, Referees must work as a team in each ring. Don't hesitate to call upon the "RIC" (Referee In Charge) to assist with an unruly Coach.
~BHarris
 4/14/2006 5:13:01 PM
User is offlinevincentlo
16 posts
5th


Re: Shoulder Shots and the Facial Area
I'm posting some comments written by Mr. Harris earlier. A lot of referees still believe that the neck area is considered part of the head, and no doubt that diagram in the Referee Textbook doesn't help.

Yours,
Vincent Lo


WTF Competition Rule clarifications by Bruce Harris

First item worthy of our attention: Crossing the Boundary Line has
clearly been defined as occurring when one foot is completely across
the Boundary Line. There has been past debate about not having
occurred until both of the contestant's feet have crossed the
Boundary Line.

Second, clarification has been given to the appropriate action to
take for a legal foot attack to the face that strikes the neck or the
shoulder area. These are Permitted Areas, but are not Scoring Areas.
Therefore, no point should be awarded to kicks that land on the neck
or on the trapezious/shoulder area (This includes axe kicks).

Should a contestant be kicked on the neck area or the shoulder area
as the result of a legitimate technique and is injured and may not be
able to continue, the Center Referee should declare "Kalyeo" and
"Kyeshi" to allow a one minute medical timeout. After that one
minute, should the competitor not be able to continue, that
competitor will be declared the loser. No penalty need be given to
the opponent because these are Permitted Areas.

Another area of emphasis was clarifying the criteria to be considered
when assessing penalties for Falling and for Crossing the Boundary
Line. The considerations are the same: Unintentional (verbal warning
first time; continued occurrences define intent), Accidental due to a
Technical Exchange (verbal warning), Intentional (half-point
deduction), Result of an Illegal Action by the Opponent (Opponent
receives a half-point deduction).
 4/15/2006 7:13:30 AM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: Shoulder Shots and the Facial Area
No new response is necessary since this only restates information already disseminated by The Dr. I would prefer to deal with new questions, even if they are regarding an issue that has been touched upon previously. I understand that these remain issues of emphasis at many competitions. Only through education and clarification will Referees become more consistent in the proper application of the Competition Rules.
~BHarris
 4/18/2006 3:27:43 PM
User is offlinevoorheestkd
16 posts
www.voorheestkd.com
5th


Re: Shoulder Shots and the Facial Area

i would interject only one thing....the point Mr. Lo posted about the neck not being a valid scoring area.  Unless I've missed an update somewhere, I thought we made it clear (and I'm certain the good Doctor did, as well) that the neck IS a valid scoring area for a kick.  I'll have to page back through stuff, but I'm fairly certain we addressed that very issue immediately upon returning from the IRRC in Dallas.

--Larry Voorhees
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