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 The last kyungo (gamgeom)
 
 3/7/2006 10:13:52 PM
User is offlineGrant Marlenee
23 posts
5th


The last kyungo (gamgeom)
I find it interesting that there are people out there, even some that claim to be referees, that feel that a referee should never call the 'final' penalty.  "Final" being the one that ends the match.  Their claim is that the referee is then deciding the match.  It is my contention that it is the player deciding the match through his or her decision to commit an infraction.  The referee's failure to call the infraction would actually be penalizing the player that committed fewer penalties. If it isn't a penalty the last time, why is it a penalty the first time?  What is the Dr's take on this?

Grant
Grant Marlenee
 3/8/2006 5:59:42 AM
User is offlineJeannette
176 posts
2nd


Re: The last kyungo (gamgeom)
While we are in the Doctor's waiting room, I'd chime in and say that it seems to me that you are correct. No one likes to penalize someone out of the game, but the ref is not the one committing the infractions. It's not like the competitor doesn't have lots of opportunity to change his behavior, before he is called out.

Jenny
 3/8/2006 6:30:04 AM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: The last kyungo (gamgeom)
 Modified By Scott Zeiter on 3/8/2006 9:57:24 AM)
A very interesting question, indeed... As all current Refereees know, the number of penalty points was raised from three (3) to four(4), partly to help to cut down on the number of times an athlete will lose a match based on penalty points. That being said, it is the Referee's responsibility to be fair to both players. If one player is not following the rules, that player must be penalized in order to make sure that the match is fair. Each athlete has a Coach who is there to help guide them in their actions, to include giving advice on who to compete without committing rules infractions. A Coach should never allow an athlete to continue to commit rules infractions without amending their fight/game plan. While it is true that a good Referee is hesitant to decide the outcome of a match, still it is incumbent on the Referee to also insure the fair play of both competitors. That should take precedence. I speak from experience when it comes to giving "the final penalty" in a big game scenario, having been one of the first ever to do so at a World Championship event. Every effort should be made to ensure that the athlete who is nearing disqualification is informed of the situation so that they have an opportunity to adjust their strategy. If they persist in committing rules infractions, the Referee should not feel badly about continuing to enforce the rules, even if it means the match will end in a disqualification based on penalty points.
~BHarris
 3/8/2006 9:05:36 AM
User is offlineGrant Marlenee
23 posts
5th


Re: The last kyungo (gamgeom)
Great, that's pretty much exactly how I played the scenario that prompted this question.  I had a match at collegiates that I have coined the "Brokeback Mountain Match".  Those cowboys were hugging like mad and I truly expected to hear "I just wish I could quit you".  After giving them sufficient time (IMHO) to resolve the situation and breaking them a couple times without any warnings, I gave a joo-eui to each and asked them to quit holding.  It appeared mutual so I was reluctant to penalize one or the other.  More groping ensued.  I issued kyungo's to both.  Blue took the hint, but Red just couldn't adjust.  Another kyungo or two.  On to overtime.  More groping.  I said "Come on guys, you decide this don't make us."  More clinching with blue making a honest attempt to fight out but Red hanging on for dear life.  I felt it would be unfair to NOT bust Red.

I'll search my personal angst for other clarifications, but generally I'm OK with the decisions I've made.  Except maybe for counting out a guy that got might have been kicked in the groin at a local this last weekend.  But that was one of those "size 13 foot" issues.  At least part of the foot hit the hogu.

PS to the administrator.  You should turn off the auto censor, since all posts are approved by human moderators, what does the auto censor contribute other than messing up "i n c u m b e n t:"?  I sure wouldn't want to say it's assinine. ;)

Grant
Grant Marlenee
 3/8/2006 10:17:47 AM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: The last kyungo (gamgeom)
I am happy to hear that you applied the recommended treatment this past weekend. However, you do raise another issue- that of giving penalties to both athletes at the same time. I know that this has also been the subject of some debate by my learned colleagues and others. I subscribe to the belief that we, as Referees, should try to determine which athlete caused the rules infraction (usually holding or pushing) and penalize that one athlete. We know that when one athlete is grabbing or holding, the other athlete is usually pushing to gain distance. The reverse may be true where one athlete initiates a push and the other athlete grabs or holds. I do believe that, in most cases, one action precipates the other. Therefore, we should try to remain alert and agile enough to be in a position to determine which athlete broke the rules first and penalize that athlete. It is, admittedly, easier to just penalize both. But, in the interest of fair play, I think that only the first offender should be penalized. Consider the issue of determining which athlete is trying to create an opening when both athletes are just bouncing and not attacking. In general, the rule of thumb is to penalize the athlete that is retreating rather than to penalize them both.
~BHarris
 3/8/2006 10:27:41 AM
User is offlineMWickham
39 posts
4th


Re: The last kyungo (gamgeom)
Master Harris-

Thank you for your insight, it's very helpful. Yes it is tempting to penalize both.One scenario that I had help with at Sr Nationals was stalling by both players. Master Bernard Robinson gave me a very well thought out observation of how to deal with this and give an appropriate penalty after a verbal warning.

Mike
 3/8/2006 10:33:27 AM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: The last kyungo (gamgeom)
Mr. Wickham, in this doctor's opinion, you are well on the way to a full recovery and a healthy and long life. Keep seeking and heeding the advice of experienced Referees and your path will be gilded with platitudes from those who watch you and seek to learn from you.
~BHarris
 3/8/2006 11:39:21 AM
User is offlineJeannette
176 posts
2nd


Re: The last kyungo (gamgeom)
 Modified By Jeannette on 3/8/2006 11:40:22 AM)
Giving those double kyong-gos is indeed hazardous. I am put in mind of a situation I once observed when a fight was in overtime, with one double kyong-go given for stalling. The Ref unfortunatly felt the need to award another double kyong-go. The result was that the first competitor he awarded a kyong-go to, automatically lost. Ouch.

still looking for that platitude gilded path


Jenny
 3/8/2006 9:49:19 PM
User is offlineMichael Soper
33 posts
4th




Re: The last kyungo (gamgeom)
 Lazily, I would prefer to give both players a kyongo or gamjeom at the same time, but only because it keeps me from having to pinpoint to the instigator.  I have found that giving both penalties usually solves nothing, whereas penalizing one player instead of the other forces better play from both competitors.

One rule for which I am grateful is scoring both players at once is not discouraged.  I seem to remember seminars years ago that taught otherwise; citing neither point should be scored because they would cancel each other out.  Does anybody else recall receiving this information?
 3/8/2006 11:31:33 PM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: The last kyungo (gamgeom)
Personally, I have never been at a Referee Seminar where the information was disseminated that discouraged the scoring of valid points, whether it involved two players scoring them simultaneously or not. That would violate the intent of most of the competition rules, including recognizing and scoring valid points as well as fair play. As we are all well aware, we must score every valid point that we recognize, as quickly as we can do so. The reward of seeing points scored is an increase in activity on the part of both competitors. A lack of awarding valid points has just the opposite and undesirable effect- less action by the competitors.
~BHarris
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