Search  
Wednesday, January 07, 2009 ..:: Discussion Forum ::.. Register  Login
      
 TRUE Discussion Forum
SearchForum Home
     
  Discussions  Ask the Ref Doctor  Board Breaking...
 Board Breaking
 
 3/22/2006 10:59:08 AM
User is offlineMichael Soper
33 posts
4th




Board Breaking

Here's a topic usually left out of most national referee seminars, but now and again is brought up at our local tournaments.  Lets say two competitors compete in breaking, the first punches through a board cleanly on the first try while the other breaks on their second try with a roundhouse kick.

Should the first player be given superiority for breaking the first time or should the second player because of a more difficult technique?  As it appears in the USAT rules, althought it is not explicitly stated, it appears the criteria for difficulty (roundhouse above a punch) is ranked higher than accuracy (break on the first try rather the second).  However, poom-sae judging is based on the proficiency of ten criteria in any order, which is not explicitly stated either, but is usually announced as such when covered in seminars.

So who wins and for what reason?

 3/22/2006 1:27:53 PM
User is offlineMWickham
39 posts
4th


Re: Board Breaking
Michael, I too am looking for the correct answer to that one. I know at a tournament in the midwest we were told to use the accuracy method first. The rationale for this was the board breaker made their decision on how to break and thus should break the boards. But I also agree the degree of difficulty ought to weigh in. I am also anxious for the Doctor to give us his views on this issue.

Mike
 3/22/2006 8:56:45 PM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: Board Breaking
 Modified By bckwh  on 3/22/2006 7:57:39 PM)
Gentlemen, as you know, Board Breaking is viewed as the step-child of Taekwondo events by some. It is probably the most subjective Taekwondo event to judge since there are no hard and fast criteria for judging, other than whether the break was successful or not. Still, in applying the basic princlple that Taekwondo is predominantly a foot-oriented martial art, we can logically give preference to foot techniques used in breaking competitions over hand techniques. This is consistent with our scoring of foot techniques in sparring more often than punches. There is obviously a lot of room for variance among judges when it comes to Board Breaking. For example, a successful 2-board break with a fist on the first try is not the same as a 2-board break with a foot on the first try, though some might argue that since it is harder to break two boards with the hand, that break should get higher marks. But, when one factors in the foot techniques used to break the two boards, again the kick should get higer marks. Once we get into the area of foot breaks on a second try versus a hand break on the first try, the subjectiveness of each judge becomes more of a factor in how they choose to score the breaks. While I think that there is a rule of thumb for successful first attempt breaks, the degree of difficulty of a break using the foot must come into play when compared with a successful first attempt break with the hand. In summary, it all boils down to the use of common sense by the judges while using the "foot is superior to the hand" rule of thumb for our martial art/sport.
~BHarris
 3/22/2006 10:37:31 PM
User is offlineMichael Soper
33 posts
4th




Re: Board Breaking

Thank you for the speedy reply doctor.  On one hand I think it's too bad breaking is happily forgotten at most tournaments, but if it means finishing an eight hour tournament an hour early then usually I wouldn't object.

I too agree that a successful foot technique, regardless of which try it was completed should be considered the superior technique.  I also agree that more difficult techniques, not the number of boards, should give a player superiority.  I would much rather award the gold to a player who breaks one board with a 720 hook kick than another who punches three boards at once.

With the topic at hand, any chance of seeing an overhaul of the guidelines for judging breaking similar to the changes the WTF is attempting to implement this fall with the 1st World Poom-Sae Championships?

 3/23/2006 6:48:44 AM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: Board Breaking
Mr. Soper, as you may know, there are currently no WTF guidelines for the judging of the Kyuckpa (Breaking) competition. As far a si Know, there are no plans to include Kyuckpa guidelines in the Competition Rules. It is definitely an area that needs addressing, and maybe Kukkiwon is working on a comprehensive set of guidelines for Kyuckpa as they have come up with for Poomse.
~BHarris
 3/23/2006 1:58:13 PM
User is offlineGrant Marlenee
23 posts
5th


Re: Board Breaking
Might I suggest that since there is, to my knowledge, no national breaking competition and no kukkiwon guidlines, you suggest to the local tournament organizers a format used here that eliminates subjectivity.

The entire division is turned to face away from the ring.  A series of breaks is set up which will not vary for the division except for being adjusted for height.  For example, face level is that competitors face level, etc.  Each competitor is brought out into the field of play, still facing away.  Upon shijak the competitor turns and dispatches the boards as fast as possible, while being timed by stopwatch.

The most breaks wins with ties being decided by the stopwatch.

We usually don't allow for second tries, but that could be accomodated while still using the stopwatch.

Grant

Grant Marlenee
 3/23/2006 2:43:06 PM
User is offlineJeannette
176 posts
2nd


Re: Board Breaking
I'm sure the doctor will correct me if I am wrong but I belive that the guidelines for international competition would not be set by the Kukkiwon, they'd be set by the WTF.

Your idea is a good one for exhibiting one aspect of the break, the speed break. However, most effective competitive breaks involve much more complex series' of techniques, often involving gymnastic type moves, flying techniques, etc.

Grant, you may not have been around, but until recently, breaking was a part of national competion.

 3/23/2006 3:29:05 PM
User is offlineMichael Soper
33 posts
4th




Re: Board Breaking

I'm delighted to see posts from many fellow referees on a topic I didn't think would spark much interest at all. 

Years ago, we never allowed any variation in breaking competition at our local tournaments.  Everyone was required to complete a flying side kick and the winner was declared by who jumped further without crossing the fixed 'jumping line'.  Needless to say, it was a more objective way to judge breaking, but interest and participation was lost quickly.

I am not against timing the players who otherwise might take 5 minutes to break at 10 stations while another completes 4 breaks in under a minute.  The players should be timed according to the current USAT rules (1 minute setup, 1 minute break) and are disqualified if they go over.  I think fairest way to judge breaking is to follow the order of the printed criteria: Difficulty of Technique, Number of Stations and Boards; Accuracy, Speed, and Power; and finally Balance, Rhythm, and Manner.  By following this order, we reward players who complete a difficult technique over an inferior.  If both players complete the same difficulty level of techniques (both spinning kicks for example), then the number of stations and boards is considered and so on.

I do not forsee anybody winning their breaking division because they only had great balance, but when we need to decide superiority in the bonus round of a match tied after sudden death, we judge based on a given criteria (in order): Initiative Attacking, Applied More Techniques, More Advanced Techniques, and Better Attitude.  Why not incorporate the same idea to breaking?  Perhaps it will be something to consider when the next updates are made to the referee handbook.

 3/23/2006 3:48:43 PM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: Board Breaking
With regard to the Board Breaking aspect of Taekwondo competitions, let me first say that I believe that it would be regulated by Kukkiwon, not WTF. It was Kukkiwon that developed the World Poomse Competition as a reflection of the "martial arts" side of Taekwondo. I feel that Breaking would also fit into that concept rather than along with the Kyuroogi (Sparring) side of the house. Of course, the argument could be made that all three are competitions and should all fall under WTF Competition Rules. In reality, they have been separated as far as responsibilities for developing and impleminting guidelines. As for Mr. Marlenee's suggestions, they are good suggestions. I am sure that any number of people could come up with suggestions for how to run Breaking Competitions. As for national regulation of Breaking, as Ms Woodard stated, this was once a part of the national competitions. As such, there were basic guidelines for conducting those competitions. Even with those guidelines, they were vague enough and allowed for individual subjectivity. In my opinion, local tournament directors have an excellent opportunity to devise, experiment with, and come up with a Breaking Competition format that works. Once the process has been tested, the results could be shared with the Taekwondo community for possible similar implementation. This might be comparable to the "Trial and Error" Method that has lead to the development of so many vaccines that now serve as wonder drugs for society.
~BHarris
 3/23/2006 5:41:52 PM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: Board Breaking
Mr. Soper, I, too am pleasantly surprised at the response generated about Breaking competitions. You know that, years ago, the USTU included in its National Championships, several different Breaking competitions that included Distance Breaks, Height Breaks, as well as Multiple Station Breaks. It was/is a crowd-pleasing event, even though the judging was always way too subjective. Even using the criteria that you suggest, still a good deal of subjectiveness remains. Not all Referees agree on a Degree of Difficulty criteria, for example. Power might be subjective, along with rhythm and manner. Still, a great suggestion. Any other suggestions out there...?
~BHarris
  Discussions  Ask the Ref Doctor  Board Breaking...

SearchSearch  Forum HomeForum Home     

Copyright 2005-2008 by CBSolutions.com   Terms Of Use  Privacy Statement