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 Re: Situation Seen at German Open
 
 5/1/2006 10:33:39 AM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: Situation Seen at German Open
Ms Woodard, I feel that I should give you "Frequent Visitor" rewards, or something... :-) Thank you, once again, for your visit with the Doc.

Regarding the Referee having a Judges' Caucus during a match to discuss scoring (or lack thereof), I am a firm believer in trying to avoid the appearance of impropriety. By that, Imean that , to take such action during a match can be viewed two different ways- 1: The Referee may be addressing possible scoring irregularities to encourage vigilance and greater attention; 2: The Referee may be telling the Judges how to score and to whom points should be awarded.

My preference is for the experienced TA to address such matters between rounds. In the absence of an experienced TA, the Referee may hold a judges; caucus, but should be careful not to tell judges to score for one competitor or the other. Such a caucus should be very short. The Referee should merely bring to the attention of the judges that s/he saw possible points that were not scored. Along with that, a recommendation to stay alert in the corners. Then the match should continue.

Recently, I have seen caucuses in the ring that last much too long and seem to become a debate. That should be avoided. Even if the Referee is polling the judges on whether they scored a point or not, the process should not take more than one minute.

An experienced TA should get the attention of the Referee when apparent/obvious points are being missed, ask the Referee to poll the corner judges, and to make a determination. This proactive action on the part of the TA must be used judiciously, but, when used propelry, can prevent protests and intervention on the part of the coaches.

Finally, sometimes just the act of having the corner judges get out of the chairs and approach the Scorer's Table is enough to help prevent fatigue from setting in. I term this action as taking a "Brain Break."

~BHarris
 5/1/2006 10:47:11 AM
User is offlineJeannette
176 posts
2nd


Re: Situation Seen at German Open
Yes, well frequent visits to the Doctor may be a sign that someone is not paying attention to the work they are supposed to be doing....
I agree. With some of us, the very act of standing up seems to take a lot of pressure off of our brains.
 5/1/2006 3:43:09 PM
User is offlineGrant Marlenee
23 posts
5th


Re: Situation Seen at German Open
I certainly can't add much to the excellent opinions presented other than I went through a very similar incident Saturday.  Hong, from Peurto Rico, got frustrated and threw a haymaker at Chung which fortunately just glanced off the headgear.  I issued a gamgeom since it was blatantly intentional in my opinion.  A little later Chung exhibits the gall to get his own revenge by 'accidently' popping Hong in the head.  I saw no option but a gamgeom for that too before they did degrade into a boxing match and riot.  Correct calls?

As for the German open, that match should have been over even if the victim showed ability and intent to continue since the gamgeom would have made the score 5 to -2 for a 7 point gap.  But somebody already said that.  As far as the head butt, I'd have asked the tournament committe to revoke the coach's credentials and eject him or her. Would they really want to have a repeat of the incident in the next match where he or she felt the need for revenge?

From the point of the referee's responsibility to ensure the safety of the contestants, I think all officials should have immediately intervened as a team to protect Hong from the coach. 

Grant Marlenee
 5/1/2006 4:09:46 PM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: Situation Seen at German Open
Mr. Marlenee, thank you for your insightful comments regarding this situation. And, thank you also for sharing your recent experience. Your Gamjeom calls were correct. Personally, I would have stopped the match and called both coaches to the center of the ring and I would have explained to them that any further outburst on the part of either contestant would result in a disqualification. I like putting the onus on the coaches for their competitors' behavior. Still, you acted in the correct manner by giving both players a Gamjeom for their actions when they occurred.

Regarding the German Open, I will offer my comments on the situation by the end of the day tomorrow. So, if anyone else wants to chime in, now is the time...

~BHarris
 5/2/2006 12:21:23 PM
User is offlinevoorheestkd
16 posts
www.voorheestkd.com
5th


Re: Situation Seen at German Open

All:

I believe Mr. Soper is correct almost to the letter.  However, technically, the match is not over until the Referee acknowledges one player over the other.  In this instance, while there was a 7-pt. gap, I believe that we, as referees have also been given the admonishment that if a player is up by 6, has a kyongo, scores the 7th point and immediately commits an infraction that violates the "spirit of fair play", that we should give that second kyongo, and with that, the score would return to a 6 point spread, and the game would continue.

In this case, if we were to apply that thinking, it is conceivable that one could award a gamjeom to Chung, because of the coach's behavior., bringing the match back into play. If one were to stretch it even further, one could DQ Chung and award the match to Hung, under the "blatant disregard for the safety", etc., rule, where the referee can award the match by punitive declaration.  Again, only because the match ain't over until the referee say it's over.

Personally, what would I do?  Neither of those two.  I think I would go along the route Mr. Soper suggested. I would remember the admonition of WTF Ref Chairman Kim, when he said, "use your brains and your experience to apply the rules as guidelines to fair play."  In that light, after the pandemonium had subsided, I would declare Chung the winner. I would have the TA hold the credentials of Chung's coach, pending a ruling of the Sanctioning Board of the WTF on the coach's behavior.

...and I'd probably have a very tall, very stiff scotch at the bar that night...

--Larry Voorhees

 5/2/2006 3:28:24 PM
User is offlinebckwh
104 posts
2nd


Re: Situation Seen at German Open
Thank you, Mr. Voorhees for your insightful comments. With your letter on this matter, I will now offer my comments about the situation seen at the German Open.

A quick recap of the situation: Hon is losing in the thrd round 5 to minus 1. Out of frustration, Hong attacks Chung with a fist to the face, rendering Chung nearly unconscious. The Referee immediately stopped the match and called for timeout. Referee then assesses Hong a Gamjeom. While this is going on, Chung's coach enters the ring and attacks competitor Hong with a head-butt. What to do about the outcome of the match?

Chung should be declared the winner by virtue of the score in the match. Competitor Chung should not be punished for the actions of his Coach. According to the new WTF Competition Rules, Chung's Coach should have been sanctioned for the remainder of the event and not allowed to continue to serve as Coach at that event.

This, in fact, is not what actually did happen. Chung was declared the winner after much discussion, but Chung's Coach was also allowed to continue coaching at that event. He did receive a stern and severe talking to by the organizing staff, but he was allowed to continue coaching his player. Fortunately, no further outbursts took place. I daresay that, in the USA, the Coach would have been handled differently and would have been sanctioned.

A big "Thank You" to all who took the time to participate in this exercise. Perhaps more of you will participate should another "You Make The Call" come up on this Forum.

~BHarris
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