Search Forum Home   Discussions  Ask the Ref Doctor  Referees are ne...  Referees are never wrong    5/1/2006 5:46:37 PM Grant Marlenee 23 posts Referees are never wrong Saturday I messed up.  I was centering all the black belt matches at an international tournament in  ..wait for it.. South Dakota.  It wasn't an official WTF international of course, but with Canada, US, Peurto Rico, Mexico, Dominican Republic players it was definately international in flavor.  It was also to be run by WTF rules, last year's though, three judges, no point gap or ceiling. It also had a scoring system that I wasn't completely familiar with.  And an operator that wasn't familiar with the official terminology.  So, all that added up to my not noticing that no kyungos had come up on the screen until the rest break.  I definately remembered calling at least one on blue along with various joo-euis. I wandered up and instructed that the kyungo be added, explained the signals, and sauntered back confident that I'd taken care of the problem and smug about how good a job I was doing. Pride cometh before a fall I guess. Match continues and ends in a tie.  I declare the tie and hong's coach alerts me to the fact that the points didn't come off for the kyungos.  Duh? Well, sometimes I have a short memory.  Joo-eui's give me heartburn because sometimes I can't remember who I gave a joo-eui and hence have to kyungo for the next one.  And that's in the same round. I called the judges and operater up and asked what they remembered and they all said they remembered one kyungo.  Well OK.  Told coach we'd fight the overtime.  Coach got insistent and called in backup with a video camera.  Now I just decided to get pig-headed. USAT doesn't allow video in protests so I wasn't going to. Shame on me.  I told him I'd made my decision and he said he'd take it up with the tournament host.  I said fine, if he wanted to overrule me he could, he was sitting right there watching the match.  He just looked at me and said "It's up to you".  Well, I was already pig headed and not about to appear wimpy and reverse my decision even though I figured they were 100% correct if willing to present video.  So I got stubborn and said they had to go sudden death.  Hong lost.  So a combination of mistakes, my ego, and an over-agressive attempt to remain impartial (I knew the Hong team, not the other) all contributed to Hong losing a match he most likely really won. Well, that incident got me to pay much closer attention to the screen and to ensure that the kyungo's went up before I called keysok.  Hopefully I'm now a better referee than I was Friday.  Next weekend I'll referee at their tournament, if they're willing to forgive me by then. Thanks for a chance to display my angst.  Hopefully this can be educational for others as well as me. Perhaps I handled it correctly, it seemed so at the time, but not so much now. Grant Marlenee  5/1/2006 6:18:46 PM bckwh 104 posts Re: Referees are never wrong The Referee community can benefit from the personal example that you share with us, Mr. Marlenee. People have to sometimes be reminded that Referees are human beings, too. Noone is perfect, and we all have our foibles. Hopefully, with in-the-ring experience, we learn to subdue our human passions and egos in order to help provide that ideal, yet elusive, level playing field for our athletes. A couple of points worth mentioning come to my mind- As a Referee, familiarity often breeds the always-to-be-avoided "Appearance of Impropriety." Discretion is truly the better part of valor, meaning that one should bow out of the Center should there be a possible appearance of impropriety involving one of the competitors. It is a different matter when you know both competitors, but have no direct ties to them. So, it probably, in hindsight, would have been better had you not been the Referee in that match. Regarding the awarding of penalties and verbal warnings- Only the Referee is required to remember penalties and warnings. (Okay, the TA is there to assist in that matter as well) Corner Judges should only concentrate on scoring valid points, not in remembering verbal warnings and penalties. Again, with in-the-ring experience, a Referee gets better at keeping track of warnings/penalties. It may prove valuable to try not to interrupt the flow of the match unnecessarily for warnings. There is no rule that says that you cannot give verbal warnings during the progress of the match, unless it is a serious warning that deems match stoppage. It is a fine line, one that is learned with experience. A common mistake/occurrence nowadays is for the Referee to interrupt the flow of the match just because they have the competition rules on their side. Rules interpretation is something that is a part of correct enforcement of the competition rules as well. Ideally, it is better for a match to be decided by the players, rather than by the Referee's penalties. That is not to say that a Referee should not penalize players for obvious rules infractions. Another point is this- Don't rush when assessing a penalty. Remember that the clock has been stopped, so there is no rush on the part of the Referee. Take the time to wait until the penalty appears on the scoreboard before re-starting the match. Thank you for sharing your experience so that all of us can have the opportunity to learn from your in-ring experience. ~BHarris  5/2/2006 12:11:03 PM MWickham 39 posts Re: Referees are never wrong Dear Ref Doctor, I can sympathize with Grant. But to a different degree. Two weeks ago I was a TA and the center referee issued a kyungo (or did he?) on blue. The center referees back was at an angle that neither the computer operator (who had experience) or myself could tell if a penalty was called. We both knew he wanted the clock to stop, but the players moved and he turned his back to us. Immediately action was started because of his arm motion. But, after he started action, I then stood, waived my arms, and threw the bean bag and it got his attention. But, in that short amount of time, he stopped action again for another kyungo on blue, but this time it was clearly visable to us. At that point he came up and I asked him was this blue's second kyungo he said yes. To which I told him talk to the coach of blue and let them know. I also encouraged him to make sure we knew the penalty/ joo-eiu or whatever is clear to us at the head table. Well, we needless to say had a reasonably upset coach. But unlike Grant, this coaches player won. Master Harris you are so right about taking the time for penalty, and making sure the person running the scoreboard registers it. We were lucky this scoreboard operator understood the sport, but many times they just get a crash course on computers. Mike PS; I hope you also will continue with more of the "you make the call" tests for us!!  5/2/2006 3:35:57 PM bckwh 104 posts Re: Referees are never wrong Mr. Wickham, thank you for offering your recent experience for our consideration. This is a great way for all of us to learn from the experiences of others. Your shared experience gives me a couple of points that I would like to address. When issuing penalties, the Referee must make sure that the penalty appears on the scoreboard before continuing the match. Even when following the flow of a match places one in the situation where one's back is to the scoring table, a Referee must call Kalyeo to stop the match, turn to the Scoring Table to issue the penalty, wait to see that the penalty has been correctly entered on the scoreboard, then continue the match. In the case where an issue must be addressed to a Coach, it is my experience that it is better to call BOTH coaches to the center of the ring and explain the situation to both of them at the same time. This eliminates the possible "appearance of impropriety" where one Coach does not know what was said to the other Coach. Speaking to both of them at the same time eliminates that possible perception and doubt. This is a situation that is common, so there will be ample opportunities for all of us to try to implement this bit of preventative medicine in the ring. ~BHarris  Page 1 of 1   Discussions  Ask the Ref Doctor  Referees are ne... Flat View Tree View Oldest To Newest Newest To Oldest