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New Situations - You Make the Call

5/4/2006 2:17:28 PM

bckwh

104 posts

New Situations - You Make the Call

Here are two questions for you to consider. Please contribute your thoughts freely, even if someone else posts before you do. Elaborate as much as you would like. By the way, both questions have basis in observed competition situations.

First of all: Should a Push Kick score a valid point?

Second: When is a Cut Kick legal?

I eagerly await your responses...

~BHarris

5/4/2006 3:28:34 PM

Michael Soper

33 posts

Re: New Situations - You Make the Call

Even to this day, I have heard of many variations/interpretations of a "Cut Kick", so I will choose not to answer question #2 just yet. Could someone offer clarification and/or recommend a link to a picture of the kick in action?

On the other hand, I believe "Push Kicks" are open to less interpretation. If the part of the foot below the ankle bone (permitted technique) is delivered accurately and powerfully to the legal scoring areas of the body, then it should count as a valid point. I believe the only exception to a Push Kick not counting as a valid point is when the leg is not retracted immediately and remains on the hogu for a brief period of time. A possible case is when the extended leg is used to push the opponent back for a period of time, instead of with a quick blast. Similarly, a push with the closed fist is legal, as long as one does not straighten their arms and keep the push going for several seconds.

Hope this gets some discussion rolling for another good case of "You Make the Call".

5/4/2006 3:37:29 PM

bckwh

104 posts

Re: New Situations - You Make the Call

Mr. Soper, thank you for getting the discussion started. I am sure that there will be several follow-up responses as well.

Remember, try not to just agree with a post, but also add your own take on the topic(s).

~BHarris

5/5/2006 8:26:30 AM

Jeannette

176 posts

Re: New Situations - You Make the Call

And I'd like a better definition of 'push kick'.

I was going to look up the specific wording of the definition of point, to make sure it hasn't changed, but the USAT website is down.

Anyhow, it used to say the a part of the definition of a point was (paraphrasing) a techinque resulting in an Abrupt Displacement of the body.

What I think of as a push kick would be a placement of the foot on the body, a brief pause then a push. I don't call that abrupt. Therefore, what I call a 'push kick', I would not score.

5/5/2006 8:59:00 AM

MWickham

39 posts

Re: New Situations - You Make the Call

Okay- I would agree with Jeannette on this one. Have seen where the push kick did just that, push an opponent back with the foot to clear give some space. I saw a match where there was a clear size advantage and the taller player used it to clear the other player away. No power to the kick, the shorter player fell for the fact of being pushed over. But the referee issued a standing 8, however in all cases no points went up because there was no power.

Mike

5/5/2006 10:35:52 AM

bckwh

104 posts

Re: New Situations - You Make the Call

Ms Woodard, the information provided is intentionally without clearer definition so that everyone can weigh in on the situation based on their individual concept of what a Push Kick or a Cut Kick is to them.

So, let's keep the discussion going for a bit longer on both topics, please...

~BHarris

5/5/2006 10:36:56 AM

bckwh

104 posts

Re: New Situations - You Make the Call

Mr. Wickham, thank you for your comments on this situation. Your comments lead me to another question for a later date. Thanks for the input.

~BHarris

5/5/2006 11:24:55 AM

Michael Soper

33 posts

Re: New Situations - You Make the Call

Since the USAT site is down for the moment, you can still access the WTF Competition Rules at http://www.wtf.org/site/rules/competition.htm. I think the areas we need have little to no difference in this country unlike, for example, uniform of the contestant.

A quote from Article 12.2 about valid points:

Points shall be awarded when permitted techniques are delivered accurately and powerfully to the legal scoring areas of the body.

If a kick, say a push kick for example, uses a permitted technique to a legal scoring area, the only hair left to split is whether or not the kick fits the meaning of "powerfully". From the above Article 12.2, Explanation #3 states:

Sufficient power is demonstrated as the opponent's body is abruptly displaced by the impact of the strike.

And so we continue on the path of splitting one more hair: Did the kick in question abruptly displace the opponent's body by the impact of the strike? If the push kick is used in a manner where the extension of the leg after the foot is placed on the body displaces the opponent, then it is not sufficient power for a valid point. However, if the kick abruptly displaces the opponent by the impact alone, then it must be counted as a point.

Looking forward to some more input on this matter.

5/5/2006 12:58:52 PM

RonMarlow

8 posts

Re: New Situations - You Make the Call

Dear Master Harris: To address your questions “Should a Push Kick score a valid point? Second: When is a Cut Kick legal?” I present the following with reference to the USAT Competiton Rules as amended February 7, 2006 (see appended sections below) and I would like to raise the broader question “when is a push a: 1. Permitted technique, 2. Valid point, 3. prohibited act, 4. knockdown” A push kick that involves one player placing the foot on a permitted area (face or hogul) and then applying sufficient force to displace the opponent would seem to involve a permitted area (Article 11), possibly a permitted technique if “pushing” is considered “striking”, possibly a valid point is pushing is considered to be “delivered accurately and powerfully” that is “the opponent’s body is abruptly displaced by the impact of the strike” (Article 12) Again the question remains, is a push a strike? Finally is the act of one player placing a foot on the opponent and pushing prohibited? Article 14 describes pushing acts to “include pushing to displace the opponent’s balance for the purpose of gaining an advantage in attacking” such as a push kick to set up a scoring technique, “pushing to hinder the opponent’s normal execution of technique” such as stopping the opponent from pursuing an attack. A push kick would seem to be a push and therefore a prohibited technique. Article 14 goes on to describe the pushing parts as “pushing with the palm, elbow, shoulder, trunk or head, etc”. If “etc.” includes the foot then clearly push kicks can not score a valid point, can not result in a knock down and can not set up another technique that results in a valid score but, rather, should be penalized. If the cut kick is another term for a push kick then a cut kick is prohibited and should be penalized. This brings up my questions above. If one player puts open hands (palms), chest, or head on the opponent and pushes to displace or hinder then that is a prohibited act and should be penalized. If a push kick is a permitted technique because Article 14 does not specifically mention the foot or the fist as a pushing part then pushing with the fists should be permitted because they and the feet are the parts that can execute permitted techniques. If that is true then a player should be able to push kick or push with fists the opponent off of his or her feet as a valid point and have it counted as a knockdown. I think in practice most referees allow push kicks and not fist pushing. Some referees, as has been mentioned here, recognize a push kick knockdown and count while others do not. I believe the rules do not allow this inconsistency. I think if a push is a push then push kicks and fist pushing must be penalized, not rewarded. If push kicks are allowed but pushing with the fists is not to be allowed then the rules need to make this distinction and at this time they do not. As Dr. Kailian has pointed out the English translation of the Korean rules is not perfect but it seems that the rules are inconsistent or we (referees) are being inconsistent. Master Harris I appreciate that you are posing this and other questions for us. I appreciate this forum and look forward to more discussion. Sincerely yours, Ron Marlow University of Nevada, Reno Competition Rules, USAT February 7, 2006 Article 11. Permitted Techniques and Areas 1. Permitted Techniques 1) Fist techniques: Delivering techniques by using the front parts of the forefinger and middle finger of the tightly clenched fist. 2) Foot techniques: Delivering techniques by using the parts of the foot below the ankle bone. Fist techniques: In the original Korean terminology of techniques, the term “Pa-run-ju-mok” can be interpreted as a correctly clenched fist. Therefore, striking with the front part of the middle and forefinger knuckles of the correctly clenched fist is permitted without consideration of the angle, trajectory, or fist placement of the strike. Foot techniques: Any striking techniques using the part of the foot below the ankle bone are legal, whereas any others using the part of the leg above the ankle bone, i.e., part of the shin or knee, etc. are not permitted. (pg. 15) Article 12. Valid Points 1. Legal Scoring Areas 1) Mid-section of the trunk: The part covered by the trunk protector. 2) Face: The whole part of the face above the collarbone, including both ears. 2. Points shall be awarded when permitted techniques are delivered accurately and powerfully to the legal scoring areas of the body. 3. The valid points are divided as follows: 1) One (1) point for attack on trunk protector 2) Two (2) points for attack on the face 3) One (1) additional point shall be awarded in the event that the contestant is knocked down and the referee counts. (Please see Article 17, “Knock Down.”) (pg. 16) Accurately: This means the proper aspect of a legal attacking technique, fully contacting the opponent within the designated limits of a legal target area. Powerfully: a. In the use of electronic scoring trunk protector: Force of impact is measured by the electronic sensor of the protector with the level of force by which points are scored varying by weight division and sex. b. Trunk protector not equipped with electronic sensor: Sufficient power is demonstrated as the opponent’s body is abruptly displaced by the impact of the strike. - The criterion of declaration “Kye-soo” (knock-down): When a contestant is knocked down, the referee should first check the condition of the contestant and count. After counting, the referee shall instruct the recorders to add one (1) additional point. - The criterion of “Knock-down” shall be in accordance with Article 17. (pg 17.) Article 14. Prohibited Acts 9. e. Grabbing, holding or pushing the opponent This includes grabbing any part of the opponent’s body, uniform or protective equipment with the hands. Also included is the act of grabbing the foot or leg or hooking either one on top of the forearm. Holding includes pressing the opponent’s shoulder with the hand or arm, hooking the opponent’s body with arm with the intention of hindering the opponent’s motion. If, during the competition the arm passes beyond the opponent’s shoulder or armpit for the above-mentioned purpose, a penalty may be declared. Pushing acts include pushing to displace the opponent’s balance for the purpose of gaining an advantage in attacking, pushing to hinder the opponent’s normal execution of technique and pushing with the palm, elbow, shoulder, trunk or head, etc. (pg. 21) Article 17. Knock Down 1. When any part of the body other than the sole of the foot touches the floor due to the force of the opponent’s delivered technique. 2. When a contestant is staggered showing no intention or ability to pursue the match. 3. When the referee judges that the contest cannot continue as the result of any power technique having been delivered. A knock down: The situation in which a contestant is knocked to the floor or is staggered or unable to respond adequately to the requirements of the match due to a blow. Even in the absence of these indications, the referee may interpret as a knock down the situation where, as the result of contact, it would be dangerous to continue or when there is any question about the safety of a contestant. (pg. 27)

5/5/2006 3:27:32 PM

bckwh

104 posts

Re: New Situations - You Make the Call

Messrs Soper and Marlowe, I thank you for taking the time to contribute your thougts to this forum on the topics of Push Kicks and Cut Kicks. Great points for all to consider.

By the way, how many of us have seen points scored for these techniques when we were in the ring in which one (or both) of the techinques occurred? How about as a spectator? Did we, in our minds, question what we saw (whether the kicks were scored or not) at that time. Now is your chance to share your experience(s) and thoughts on this matter.

~BHarris

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