TRUE Discussion Forum

Forum Home

Discussions

Ask the Ref Doctor

Clinches/JSR...

Clinches/JSR

5/23/2006 9:39:11 PM

slewis

9 posts

Clinches/JSR

Dear Referee Doctor,

Packing for Dallas NQ, I am going over in my mind rules and regs and scenarios...some things seem to require revisiting, as they are so much more than words in a referee manual. I have enjoyed so much your excellent explanations on this site, and tend to copy and review them. Could you give us a more in-depth definition on "legal" clinching versus illegal "holding"...and how to decide how long to let in-fighters tussle to fight-out and score....it seems like I often patiently wait awhile to let them "fight out", only to decide it's time to separate them...and that's the exact moment someone jumps out and kicks just as my kal-yeo is being voiced. Ugg. Also, on the head kick using Junior Safety Rules...I have heard "a touch or a brush" and/or "it should not move the head". But, in practice, I find it kinda depends on the fighters...I so want to be completely fair to both, and objective...but a tough young man that is not even rocked by a pop on the head...I tend to let them keep fighting: on the other hand, if it is really close to a mis-match and the weaker player is getting his ribs cracked by a stronger, faster, more aggressive competitor...a medium hard...60% too hard blow to the head will get a -1 and a quiet "it's a little too hard, let's gentle up on the head please" from me. Safety first, but true fairness, professionalism, and understanding and compensating for and overcoming your weaknesses as a referee are very important too. I would appreciate very much your insights on these matters.

Thank you,

Susan Lewis

5/23/2006 10:17:37 PM

bckwh

104 posts

Re: Clinches/JSR

Ms Lewis, thank you for your visit to the Doc once again. Your questions are very insightful. In some cases, the answers you seek will only come from actually experiencing them in the ring. Some things you gain a "feel" for over time. Nevertheless, I will try to share some things to think about while in the ring in these situations.

First of all, a legal clinch occurs when two competitors come together as a result of attempting to attack each other. They iend up in close proximity, such that the distance is too close to execute leg techniques that have a chance of scoring. Sometimes puching may ensue in this close priximity. The determining factor for the Referee is whether one competitor is trying to prevent the other competitor from gaining the distance required to execute legal attacks. This can be done by several illegal means: holding with the hand(s), holding with the forearms, holding with the shoulders, holding with the wrists, etc. These efforts are designed to impede the opponent from being able to executed techniques. It does not matter whether the hands are open, or whether the arms pass the opponent's back. If both competitors end up standing together without trying to move or impede the other competitor's progress, this is legal and allowable. Once one competitor attempts to gain distance in order to execute an attack and the movement is impeded by the opponent, then an infraction has occurred. First time occurrence may result in a verbal warning or, if a flagrant holding or pushing action takes place, a Kyungo may be given. That is the Referee's call, done in compliance with the guidance from the Head Referee at that event.

How long should one allow a legal clinch to continue? A rule of thumb that I try to use is to try to be consistent. By that, I mean that I try to approach a clinch that takes place early in a match the same way that I approach a clinch near the end of the match when time is more precious. So, if you, based on your comfort level, allow the competitors approximately ten seconds to fight out of a clinch that happens at the beginning of a match, you should be the same way near the end of the match. The corollary is to allow a shorter period of time to expire (I try to use a three-second window) before inserting yourself and continuing the match. Something to consider- if one competitor attempts to fight out of the clinch when you are breaking them, you might consider allowing a couple of seconds longer on the next clinch. That way, no competitor is deprived the opportunity to fight out of a clinc, but they also will not be able to waste clock time.

Concerning Junior Safety Rules: Each Referee should have a "Power Threshold" in their mind for each age group. It should not matter if one child can take a strong kick better than another child. The fact that the power threshold has been exceeded is what triggers the penalty. How much contact is too much contact? This is very hard to answer because it is something that is known once it is seen. Again, the power threshold for competitors in the 10-11 year old age group must be a lot lower than it is for 12-13 year old age group.

I think that one of the intents of the Junior Safety Rules is to allow children to be able to demonstrate the ability to kick to the face with control. That does not mean the ability to kick to the face with power. Using that logic, if a kick to the face is something that you would consider awarding a point for under non-JSR conditions, then the kick was too hard. While controlled kicks to the face have some power, they should not be held to the same standard for non-JSR valid points to the face. Remember that, in those age groups where face kicks are allowed, the contact will either be a point or a penalty. THere is no in-between. Children are encouraged to kick to the trunk protector with power. Facial contact must have control so that children are protected from injury. It is too late to decie that a kick was too hard once the child is laying on the ground with an injury that may have been prevented by talking to the aggressive player and Coach before the excessive contact happens. As a Referee, we are not trying to eliminate agressiveness and positive ring management by children. We are trying to prevent injuries from occurring to child athletes. Always include both coaches in discussions about excessive contact so that each hears what is being said about the contact at the same time.

Again, much of this will come from handling situations over and over in the ring. With JSR, I feel that it is always better to err on the side of safety, not letting someone get injured before doing something to stem the contact to the face. With clinching, again, you will develop a feel for what the athletes are trying to accomplsh in the clinch, whether it be to rest and waste clock time, or to fight out of the clinch.

Good luck in developing a better "Feel for the Ring."

~BHarris

5/24/2006 4:17:54 PM

MWickham

39 posts

Re: Clinches/JSR

Master Harris-

Thanks for your thouhts and answering Ms Lewis's question. For those at JO's there certainly will be days to test one's patience. One thing that I seem to see alot also regarding JSR and light head contact, is that player that throws a beautiful spinning hook kick. If it lands, the other player is probably out cold. To clarify, as a center referee, would'nt it be our duty to stop at that point and addressing that issue of excessive head contact? I would have to believe that by being proactive we would certainly be doing what we as center referee's should be doing, thinking safety.

Mike

5/24/2006 4:39:10 PM

bckwh

104 posts

Re: Clinches/JSR
Modified By bckwh on 5/24/2006 3:40:08 PM)

Mr. Wickham, I agree that Junior Olympics is a great place to get lots of ring experience and exposure to various situations that we can all learn from. It is up to each of us, as Referees, to take a positive approach by learning from those experieinces rather than seeking to dwell on negatives such as long days, etc.

Regarding spinning hook kicks and the Junior Safety Rules, here is my take on that. Usually, a child competitor does not make contact with the first attempted spinning hook kick. That first non-contacted attempt gives the Referee the opportunity to take control of future such kicks that might make contact. The Referee should talk to the competitor attempting to make contact with the spinning hook kick and urge them to keep their kicks down and away from the face. The nature of the spinning hook kick, as we all know, is such that control is very difficult. Therefore, it is rare when contact with this technique results in a controlled kick to the face. Usually, it is much too much power and must be penalized. So, by talking to the competitor and urging them to keep the kicks down, the Referee is taking a proactive approach before contact is made that may result in injury. The Referee is also within their purview by speaking with both coaches in the center of the ring and asking them to instruct their athletes to keep the face contact under control or lower the kicks to the body. This proactive action paves the way for a penalty or DQ for a repeat od the action that results in excessive contact.

Once contact is made with the spinning hook kick and a competitor is contacted with too much force, the Referee may call kyeshi, call the corner judges up and inform them of the Referee decision to either give a Gamjeom penalty or to disqualify because of the excessive contact. This conference makes it appear that there is unanimity for the decision. After the conference with the judges that will take place in the center of the ring, the Referee should inform the TA of the intent to penalize with Gamjeom or Disqualification. The officiating team is aware of the decision and, though it may be unpopular to the side that receives the penalty, the appearance is that the group of officials is in agreement. There is no need to discuss this with the coaches.

There is no greater trust in officials than the safety of the competitors. This is even more important where children are concerned. It is our responsibility, as officials, to keep our children and all athletes safe. That responsibility must not be taken lightly. Aside from the safety, we must be very concerned about being fair to both competitors at all times. It is not fair for one competitor to be able to use attempted powerful face kicks to intimidate another competitor without addressing that situation. The expectation for those who compete under Junior Safety Rules, is that they may compete without fear of being kicked to the face or by being injured from a kick to the face. That is our promise to all athletes that are covered by Junior Safety Rules. It is our responsibility to fairly carry out our jobs as officials so that injuries will not occur from powerful face kicks. Hopefully, we will all take our responsibility in this matter very seriously. Remember to err on the side of safety for the competitor.

I hope to see all of you at this year's Junior Olympics where our skills will be forged, as in the "crucible of war".

~BHarris

5/24/2006 9:58:30 PM

slewis

9 posts

Re: Clinches/JSR

Dear Ref Doctor,

Your counsel, as usual, is invaluable. Thank you for sharing your depth of knowledge and experience with all of us in this unique forum. I hope more and more patients crowd into your waiting room.

Susan Lewis

5/24/2006 10:07:07 PM

bckwh

104 posts

Re: Clinches/JSR

Thank you, Ms Lewis. You are much too kind. I enjoy having the opportunity to give back some of the experience that I have gained over the years. Like you, I wish that more of our Referees would pay a visit to us in this Forum so that we can share even more.

In the meantime, again I will take this opportunity to thank all of you who have contributed to this forum. It is you who make this work. I appreciate that you want to improve your work product. In doing so, you will help to improve our sport and our athletes. I applaud you all.

~BHarris

Page 1 of 1

Discussions

Ask the Ref Doctor

Clinches/JSR...