Search Forum Home   Discussions  Ask the Ref Doctor  Kicked out of B...  Kicked out of Bounds    5/24/2006 11:43:00 AM Jeannette 176 posts Kicked out of Bounds Hey Doc I learned something new at the Buffalo Qualifiers. I know you already knew, but perhaps I'm not the only one who didn't know that if a competitor is kicked hard enough to send him out of the ring, he still gets a kyongo. When my TA told me this, I doubted him. Shame on me. Anyhow, has this interpretation always been true, or is this relatively new? Jenny  5/24/2006 1:18:03 PM bckwh 104 posts Re: Kicked out of Bounds Ms Woodard, thank you for bringing this subject to the attention of our Forum readers. Please allow me to underscore the situation of which you speak. A competitor is being attacked and is retreating (strategically, but without exchanging techniques). The opponent scores with a legal attack and the competitor, while retreating, goes out of bounds. The point remains valid and the retreating competitor may get a kyungo for crossing the boundary line. This should be the case when the retreating competitor is not exchinging kicks, just retreating. If, on the other hand, a competitor is being attacked and is exchanging techniques while moving backwards and ends up out of bounds, the retreating competitor should get a verbal warning to stay in bounds. The act of exchanging techniques is what makes the difference. Even in this case, should the retreating competitor's opponent score a leagl attack, the point remains valid. Try and remember that the Referee's action of penalizing a competitor is done without consideration of whether the judges deem an attack to be a valid point. The only consideration for the Referee is whether the point was gained by legal attacks or by foul means. If done by foul means, a penalty must be assessed and the point disallowed since it was gained by illegal means. So, the Referee should not be concerned with thinking that, since the judges awarded a point to the attacker, there is no need for me to penalize the retreating competitor. Or, for the Referee to base a decision on whether to penalize or not on whether a point was awarded to a competitor. Those are independent areas of responsibility. In conclusion, it is possible for a retreating competitor to have a point scored against him/her while also receiving a kyungo for crossing the boundary line. ~BHarris  5/28/2006 6:15:29 AM vincentlo 16 posts Re: Kicked out of Bounds How about someone getting kicked so hard that they stumble back out of the ring (but not enough to warrant a 8-count)? I assume no warning since the player is not retreating? Thanks, Vincent Lo  5/28/2006 4:18:15 PM bckwh 104 posts Re: Kicked out of Bounds Mr. Lo, thank you for the question. My take on the situation mentioned is this- Generally speaking, any time a potentially punishable action takes place, some response must be given to address that action. So, given a situation where a competitor slips and falls and gets up very quickly, the Referee does nothing and lets that competitor get up and continue as if id did not happen. At the very least, the Referee should tell the competitor to stay on his/her feet. No need to stop the clock or to assess a penalty, but it is better to address the action. Now, in the case of being kicked hard enough to stumble backwards and out of the ring. Apparently, competitor A has used positive ring management in order to get Competitor B near the boundary line. Should Competitor B end up stepping out of bounds as the result of a legal attack, then Competitor B may still get a kyungo for that action. There is no attempt to conduct a technical exchange and Competitor B is out of the ring. The action of crossing the Boundary Line should not be ignored and should be addressed by some action, possibly a kyungo and maybe a verbal warning. That is up to the discretion of the Referee and the consistent actions of the ring in accordance with the directions of the Head Referee. Ring consistency is a key ingredient in this solution. If the instructions by the Head Referee include calling a kyungo for every time the Boundary Line is crossed, then all Referees should be consistent in following those instructions. If there is leeway for considering whether technical exchanges were taking place and, if so to award a verbal warning, then the Referees should all be consistent in the application of the rule that way. There is no hard and fast, cut and dried Yes or No in this situation. It is dependent on other factors like the instructions from the Head Referee. How many remember when, a few years ago, if a competitor fell for whatever reason, a kyungo was issued? That changed and now includes several considerations before giving a kyungo. Crossing the Boundary Line is the same way now. ~BHarris  5/28/2006 4:57:31 PM vincentlo 16 posts How to tell a competitor to stay on her feet? Mr. Harris, So when a competitor slips and falls, you suggested "at the very least...tell[ing] the competitor to stay on his/her feet." Would this be a formal Joo-eui? Or would this be something in English, or with some sort of gesture? Would you do this differently depending on the level of play, e.g. verbally in the US but otherwise internationally? Also, what's your personal opinion on switching from a mandatory Kyung-Go on falling and going out of bound to a referee's discretion? Do you like that personally? Do you think the switch has encouraged a higher level of play? Thanks, Vincent Lo  5/28/2006 10:28:26 PM bckwh 104 posts Re: How to tell a competitor to stay on her feet? Mr. Lo, a simple (universal) hand gesture for staying up would suffice without having to stop the clock. A more formal Joo-eui is essential when there is a chance of a player running time off the clock to gain an advantage.. The primary reason for executing a "formal" Joo-eui is to save time on the clock for extenuating circumstances such as a player falling and staying down to adjust the shin/instep pads, etc. An "informal" Joo-eui can be used by stating the competitor's Chung or Hong and giving the appropriate gesture to relay the message the Referee is trying to impart. The "universal" gestures that I refer to are the old hand signals for the penalties such as falling, pushing, grabbing, holding crossing the boundary line, et al. As for my personal opinion on switching from the mandatory Kyungo for falling and for crossing the boundary line, I am loathe to express such an opinion in this forum. Each of us, as referees, is entitled to a private opinion of rules chances. The current rules are what we must abide by. I believe that one can either embrace change or be run over by change and left behind... ~BHarris  Page 1 of 1   Discussions  Ask the Ref Doctor  Kicked out of B... Flat View Tree View Oldest To Newest Newest To Oldest